Marvin Shilmer

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Posts by Marvin Shilmer

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  402

  IT HAS BEGUN "BIG" NEWS ON AP NEWS WIRE

  by DannyHaszard in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  religion today

  monterey county herald, ca - 2 minutes ago .

  new york - jehovah's witnesses are renowned for teaching that jesus is not god and that the world as we know it will soon end.

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  Marvin Shilmer

  Eduardo writes:

  "I have a volume of Thomas Paine's collected writings so not only have I heard of it, I have actually read it - and I think the analogy quite strained."

  Here is the analogy for your strained senses: Though Common Sense was not particularly logical and neither was it particularly accurate in each detail, it did serve the purpose of motivating individuals to standup for a worthy cause no matter the current state of things, including then contemporary legalities. Hence, if we assume you are correct in your assessments of Kerry's work that does not hinder it from serving purposes of educating society of the ways of the WTS and, specifically, the reality of the WTS' blood doctrine. If all else fails Kerry has placed the subject squarely into the lap of society to either do something about a deadly doctrine or to do nothing about it. Essentially this was the purpose of Common Sense. Whether Kerry's article will result in an outpouring of support is yet to be seen. But then again, as was the case with the original, one can only tell after the fact if a published work is of the genre of Common Sense.

  On the other hand, if there is even a glimmer of merit in Kerry's work (and I believe that is the case, at least!) then the need for a general outpouring is negated because all it will take is one greedy but intelligent and creative lawyer to take the WTS apart one brick at the time, or perhaps millions of bricks at the time.

  As a spiritual man (assuming that is the case) you should be ashamed of the WTS' legal eagle going by the name of Brumley. In typical political fashion he pretends to respond to Kerry's work stating, "Any argument challenging the validity of this religious belief inappropriately trespasses into profoundly theological and doctrinal matters." The main thrust of Kerry's article has nothing whatsoever to do with the validity of a religious belief. Rather, the main thrust is to question the legality of a religion misrepresenting medical findings when those portrayals lead to harm and/or deaths. Brumley needs to decide whether he is a spiritual man and then a lawyer or if he is a lawyer and then a spiritual man. Right now he's playing political games with real lives.

  As an attorney why not answer this question: Does religious freedom grant immunity from liability for harm caused by deliberate misrepresentation of facts with full knowledge that the misrepresentation will lead to such harm?

  Please make yourself useful.

  Marvin Shilmer
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  402

  IT HAS BEGUN "BIG" NEWS ON AP NEWS WIRE

  by DannyHaszard in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  religion today

  monterey county herald, ca - 2 minutes ago .

  new york - jehovah's witnesses are renowned for teaching that jesus is not god and that the world as we know it will soon end.

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  Marvin Shilmer

  Eduardo,

  You just don’t get it, do you?

  The news is that innocents continue to die as a consequence of an insane teaching. Is there something in that you fail to grasp?

  It’s also news to probably a majority of readers because, contrary to what the WTS wants everyone to believe, the majority of earth’s population knows practically nothing about worshippers of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Incorporated. Hence it is news to most of the population that unsuspecting children die, and that hemorrhaging mothers die, etc., and all under a misguided belief forced upon them under pain of extreme shunning by a corporate organization that has the balls to print something as outrageously dishonest as this: “Any medical risk of refusing blood is probably less than the risks involved in accepting blood transfusions.”

  Society eventually tires of despots like the governing body, and they look to either their justice system to put a stop to it or else their legislative system to tell the judicial system what to do.

  Have you ever heard of a little pamphlet named Common Sense?

  Marvin Shilmer
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  240

  Desolation of Jerusalem

  by Alwayshere in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  using the wts's dates in the january 1.1965 page 29 : nabonidus= 17 years.

  add 17 to 539=556, neriglissar==4 years, add 4 to 556=560, evil-marduk=2 years, add 2 to560=562, nebuchadnezzar=43 years, add 43 to 562 =605.

  the bible at 2 kings 25: 8 and 9 says "in the 19th year of king nebuchadnezzar the servant of the king came to jerusallem and burned the house of jehovah.

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  Marvin Shilmer

  AlanF,

  For the life of me I can no longer bring myself to read scholar predictus’s rambling dodges. About the only thing his “scholarship” is good for is having some general idea of current Watchtower opinions, since this is what his “scholarship” worships; hence predictably in lockstep without exception, or question.

  I agree with Gedanken, the real value of scholar predictus is the entertainment of peering into the privacy of a mind busy in a Bethel washroom gawking at the latest Watchtower whilst he spanks the monkey (of his mind of course)!

  Marvin Shilmer
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  16

  Attention Elders: Could we get the list of talks, and maybe even some....

  by Check_Your_Premises in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  of the outlines for said talks.

  posting here probably wouldn't be the best thing, but it would be nice if we could get them up at reexamine.org.

  for those who never joined, or don't go to the hall regularly, yet have loved ones who do, it would be nice to know what the guy is going to say.. cyp

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  Marvin Shilmer

  I have a complete set of WTS public talk outlines, and the accompanying index of talks. The time it will take to scan this material puts it beyond the ability of my near-term schedule. If anyone here wants me to send hardcopies to scan send a PM and we'll discuss it.

  Marvin Shilmer
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  35

  DAMNED CONSCIENCE:JW Hypocrites Who Take Blood Products

  by steve2 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the blood letters by r jensen made riveting reading.

  thank you to the posters who advised about the availability of these letters: a lone elders attempts to elicit some sense from the rigidly nonsensical watchtower's pick-and-choose blood transfusion doctrine.

  the guy was probably doomed from the start, but i so admire his persistence and courage!

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  Marvin Shilmer

  Hello, Steve

  You write:

  "…according to their own belief: Once the blood leaves the body it has to be poured out and returned to Jehovah."

  This is precisely where the WTS has shown its more dishonest side in the last few years, that is, when it comes its blood doctrine. Why is this the case? Compare the following two statements from the WTS:

  Statement 1 from 1997:

  "Such commercialization of placental blood is hardly tempting for true Christians, who guide their thinking by God’s perfect law. Our Creator views blood as sacred, representing God-given life. The only use of blood that he authorized was on the altar, in connection with sacrifices. (Leviticus 17:10-12; compare Romans 3:25; 5:8; Ephesians 1:7.) Otherwise, blood removed from a creature was to be poured out on the ground, disposed of." --Questions From Readers, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Inc., The Watchtower, 1997 2/1: 29

  Statement 2 from 2000:

  "Or the goal may be to isolate some of a blood component and apply that elsewhere on the body. There are also tests in which a quantity of blood is withdrawn in order to tag it or to mix it with medicine, whereupon it is put back into the patient."--Questions From Readers, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Inc., The Watchtower, 2000 10/15: 31

  Without explanation, in October 2000 the WTS ceased applying the tenet that "blood removed from a creature was to be poured out on the ground, disposed of." Yet, nowhere has the WTS came out and stated this in terms that would lead an average reader to this unavoidable conclusion. So, on one hand the WTS states (repeatedly over the years!) in dogmatic language that blood removed from the body has to be disposed of, yet when the WTS drops this dogmatic tenet it fails to use equally explicit language to inform its adherents. Given the gravity of the WTS' blood policy, I believe this one instance well reveals the extent of rot within the governing body at WTS headquarters. These men are not to be trusted!

  Marvin Shilmer
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  35

  DAMNED CONSCIENCE:JW Hypocrites Who Take Blood Products

  by steve2 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the blood letters by r jensen made riveting reading.

  thank you to the posters who advised about the availability of these letters: a lone elders attempts to elicit some sense from the rigidly nonsensical watchtower's pick-and-choose blood transfusion doctrine.

  the guy was probably doomed from the start, but i so admire his persistence and courage!

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  Marvin Shilmer

  Hello, toreader

  You write:

  “What I wonder is how can the Governing Body of JW's sleep at night know they have a two conflicting doctrines at the same time? Or are they so old they dont realize it?”

  Some of them do not sleep well at night, for the very reason of their hypocrisy and dastardly conduct. Others relish in their devious ways; they think they’re clever. It’s sickening.

  Marvin Shilmer
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  35

  DAMNED CONSCIENCE:JW Hypocrites Who Take Blood Products

  by steve2 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the blood letters by r jensen made riveting reading.

  thank you to the posters who advised about the availability of these letters: a lone elders attempts to elicit some sense from the rigidly nonsensical watchtower's pick-and-choose blood transfusion doctrine.

  the guy was probably doomed from the start, but i so admire his persistence and courage!

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  Marvin Shilmer

  Hello, Steve2

  You write:

  “Marvin, from the information that you provide - obtained via phone calls - could I assume that the Watchtower itself has not published its views in any of its publications of donating blood under restricted conditions being a conscience matter?”

  Not only can you assume it, for a fact the WTS has not published its policy of allowing JWs to donated blood so long as that blood will only be used in the same fractionated forms that JWs accept without religious repercussion from the WTS. In fact, contrarily the latest published policy the WTS has seen fit to provide to JWs says this:

  “Hence, we do not donate blood, nor do we store for transfusion our blood that should be ‘poured out.’ That practice conflicts with God’s law.”—Questions From Readers, The Watchtower 10/15/2000 page 31

  Please keep in mind that the WTS policy we are talking about is not just a matter of voice confirmation. Whether the WTS likes it now or not, it did confirm this policy in writing by means of private correspondence in the Roche letter.

  Marvin Shilmer
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  38

  Society's recall of older books

  by rekless in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  does anybody remember when the wtbts ask all the congregations to bring back all the old outdated books.

  i think it was in the late eighties.

  there was an announcement from the podium, return old books so they could be returned to new york.. i was too lazy to go through my books and take them in.

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  Marvin Shilmer

  There were two different occasions where the WTS requested unused publication to be returned to the congregation.

  The first had to do with helping congregations build libraries. The Second had to do with redistributing overstocked items, whether those items were "older publications" or those that the congregation as a whole (i.e., behind the literature counter or in the publishers' homes) just had an overabundance of. If there were overstocked items (and there were plenty!) the congregation was to inform the WTS and local CO and afterward a decision would be made whether it was better to send the literature back to the WTS for distribution, or give it to a more local congregation that needed the items, or just keep it locally until a time when someone needed (wanted!) it.

  Our congregation ended up with hundreds (maybe thousands!) of Love Forever books, Greatest Teacher books, and lots more only for the WTS to tell us to just leave it in storage at the local kingdom hall. It's still there, collecting dust. I believe this second request occurred in the late 80s or early 90s. I probably have a letter on this somewhere. If I find one I'll post the pertinent section.

  Marvin Shilmer
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  35

  DAMNED CONSCIENCE:JW Hypocrites Who Take Blood Products

  by steve2 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the blood letters by r jensen made riveting reading.

  thank you to the posters who advised about the availability of these letters: a lone elders attempts to elicit some sense from the rigidly nonsensical watchtower's pick-and-choose blood transfusion doctrine.

  the guy was probably doomed from the start, but i so admire his persistence and courage!

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  Marvin Shilmer

  Hello, steve2

  You write:

  "My understanding is that even the telephone conversation did not explicitly address the question of, say, a JW friend or family member donating blood for a JW who needs Factor VIII."

  I talked with Jensen a few years ago on the phone about this very thing. He confirmed the issue you pose above is precisely one of the things his letter asked about (see the citation in my previous post) and was specifically one of the issues addressed in his phone conversation. The Roche letter addresses this same detail. In fact, in its reply, the WTS makes a comment that makes this clear when it wrote:

  "However, it is our understanding in many situations that blood from many donors would be needed to get a sufficient amount of a required fraction for treatment. Thus, the blood of a single donor may not be very significant from a practical standpoint in the production of the desired fraction." Letter dated 7/30/2001

  I have also called and talked with administrators in the WTS' Hospital Information Services department and was told that for a JW to donate blood that will be fractionated and used in ways the WTS does not forbid is strictly a personal matter for the JW.

  Marvin Shilmer
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  35

  DAMNED CONSCIENCE:JW Hypocrites Who Take Blood Products

  by steve2 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the blood letters by r jensen made riveting reading.

  thank you to the posters who advised about the availability of these letters: a lone elders attempts to elicit some sense from the rigidly nonsensical watchtower's pick-and-choose blood transfusion doctrine.

  the guy was probably doomed from the start, but i so admire his persistence and courage!

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  Marvin Shilmer

  steve2 writes:

  "However, one issue not advanced by then JW elder Jensen which should have been is the following:

  "If the Watchtower allows the Witnesses to exercise individual consciences on whether they make use of blood components (e.g., Factor VIII), does the Watchtower allow witnesses to exercise their individual consciences in whether they would donate blood for fellow witnesses that was to be used for the purpose of fractionated blood products? To me, this appears a perfectly salient question - especially for those whose consciences (wisely) say "yes" to using blood components."

  This issue is addressed in the Jensen letters. Jensen wrote:

  "Our stance is inherently conflicting since we are willing to use from the donated and stored blood supply but are unwilling to replenish the same thing that we are using from." Letter dated 1/3/2001 page 2

  The whole paragraph goes on to discuss this very thing.

  The WTS apparently answered Jensen's concern on this point in a voice conversation, which Jensen alludes to in the 6/9/2001 letter where he wrote:

  "In conversation it was stated to me that it is a personal conscience matter whether a Christian decides to donate blood that will be used in fractionated forms, the same fractionated forms that we likewise leave to personal conscience as to acceptance. I was told this act being left up to each Christian's conscience naturally follows from what we have already published about decisions to accept fractions of blood." Letter dated 6/9/2001 page 4.

  Jensen's statement is confirmed by a letter dated 7/30/2001 to Cliff Roche. In that letter the WTS writes:

  "On the same basis, some have felt that under certain conditions they could allow some minor fraction of their blood to be extracted for treating a medical condition as long as there was no misuse of their blood otherwise. The use of blood fractions is neither sanctioned or discouraged, but a matter for personal decision." Letter dated 7/30/2001 page 1

  Hence the WTS' unpublished policy is that JWs can donated blood all day long so long as that blood is used in the same fractionated forms the WTS' policy allows JWs to accept, which is "all fractions derived from any primary component of blood,"(1) which means everything sufficiently fractionated. And, it is no mystery why the WTS does not make frank acknowledgement of this aspect of its policy because to do so would reveal to even the dumbest person that the WTS whole blood doctrine is nothing more than a sick hoax of life and death proportion.

  Marvin Shilmer

  1. Durable power of attorney form provided to JWs by the WTS dated 2001